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	<title>Comments for Letters From Timothy</title>
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	<description>Reflections on Modern Religion</description>
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		<title>Comment on Women in the Catholic Church by lettersfromtimothy</title>
		<link>http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/2008/08/06/women-in-the-catholic-church/#comment-154</link>
		<dc:creator>lettersfromtimothy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 03:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/?p=119#comment-154</guid>
		<description>Rachel,

Thanks for taking the time to provide a dissenting view on this letter. I do have a response for each of your points, and they are here:

1. If this is true, I was unaware. Are you sure they were Jewish priests? There were undoubtedly women priests of the Roman mythological religion at the time. Please let me know where I can find out about Jewish female priests of the day. Assuming that this is in fact true, it seems odd that God would permit and then refuse the ordination of female priests.

2. Evidently, God did send Jesus when it best suited Him. However, it is ridiculous to speculate that Jesus would be arrested for being sexist if he were sent today, even if you could be arrested for such a thing. There is absolutely no way to know what would happen if Jesus had come today. It seems unlikely that he would make exactly the same choices, since today is so radically different than ~30 AD.

3. This is not proven, but it has been suggested by historical theologians such as Phyllis Zagano and Gary Macy. Even if it is not true, I don&#039;t believe it would undermine the essential points of my argument.

For the reasons you provided that women priests are not allowed:

1. A title created by the Church does not imply that God does not want women to be priests. God may be perfect, but the Church is decidedly not, as it is composed of humans. Even if the priest truly does become person of Christ in mass, it must obviously be in a spiritual sense. As I argue in my letter, there is no real reason to believe that the spirit has any gender whatsoever. In fact, Jesus says himself that in heaven, we are not married but are like “angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30) which seems to imply asexuality.

2. Regardless of my views on homosexuality and homosexual marriage, this argument is silly. The Church as the “Bride of Christ” is strictly metaphorical. The Church is not one person, it does not go home to bed with the priest, and it does not have a gender. If the priest marries the Church, how then is the marriage consummated? With so many priests, is the Church a polygamist? Again, these ‘marriage rites’ are a ritual that was created by the Church itself and not Jesus.

3. This assumes that the Bible is the literal, inerrant word of God. It is true that in several chapters of the Old Testament, men are described to be the head of the household and the wife subservient. However, I do not accept this is the will of God for reasons explained in my letter titled &quot;Fundamentalism.&quot; However, temporarily ignoring this argument, the Church as the priest’s family is also an idea of human origin. Actually, Jesus seemed to explicitly say to call no man on Earth “Father” (Matthew 23:9), which runs against not only this idea, but the Church’s general practice of calling priests “father.”

I never claimed that the church was &lt;em&gt;trying&lt;/em&gt; to oppress women, even if that is, in my opinion, the end result of its doctrinal position. It is true that the Catholic Church venerates the Virgin Mary (perhaps beyond all protestant denominations), but this does not excuse its position on the ordination of female priests. You again cite numerous physical differences between men and women, but again there is absolutely no reason to assume that these differences extend beyond the physical. Further, some of the differences, such as men being more “visual” and women more “emotional,” are most emphatically &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; scientific fact. Your claim about the difference between male and female approaches to religion seem similarly misinformed. I challenge you to produce evidence to support both of these claims.

The Church as a whole may not look down on women, but in my view and the view of many Catholic women, its policy does. It simply does not make sense to just assume that since Jesus did not select a woman as one of his “official” disciples that women are somehow spiritually incapable of being priests. All of the other reasons are simply further justifications. I don’t pretend to know why Jesus chose who he chose, and I don’t think the Church should either. Keep in mind that most, if not all, Protestant denominations allow women to be priests. I’ve attended an Anglican service presided over by a woman and found it spiritually fulfilling.

I am very glad that you are a devout Catholic and that you do not feel inferior to men. You are not. You can pray and do the works of God like any man. However, I hope God gives you the courage to question the works of humans. The Catholic Church has made many mistakes in its existence, and I urge you to see this position as one of them. Despite my outrage at the position, I do count myself beside you as a fellow Catholic. I hope that you will reply to me again, so I may modify my letter if necessary.

Peace,
Timothy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rachel,</p>
<p>Thanks for taking the time to provide a dissenting view on this letter. I do have a response for each of your points, and they are here:</p>
<p>1. If this is true, I was unaware. Are you sure they were Jewish priests? There were undoubtedly women priests of the Roman mythological religion at the time. Please let me know where I can find out about Jewish female priests of the day. Assuming that this is in fact true, it seems odd that God would permit and then refuse the ordination of female priests.</p>
<p>2. Evidently, God did send Jesus when it best suited Him. However, it is ridiculous to speculate that Jesus would be arrested for being sexist if he were sent today, even if you could be arrested for such a thing. There is absolutely no way to know what would happen if Jesus had come today. It seems unlikely that he would make exactly the same choices, since today is so radically different than ~30 AD.</p>
<p>3. This is not proven, but it has been suggested by historical theologians such as Phyllis Zagano and Gary Macy. Even if it is not true, I don&#8217;t believe it would undermine the essential points of my argument.</p>
<p>For the reasons you provided that women priests are not allowed:</p>
<p>1. A title created by the Church does not imply that God does not want women to be priests. God may be perfect, but the Church is decidedly not, as it is composed of humans. Even if the priest truly does become person of Christ in mass, it must obviously be in a spiritual sense. As I argue in my letter, there is no real reason to believe that the spirit has any gender whatsoever. In fact, Jesus says himself that in heaven, we are not married but are like “angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30) which seems to imply asexuality.</p>
<p>2. Regardless of my views on homosexuality and homosexual marriage, this argument is silly. The Church as the “Bride of Christ” is strictly metaphorical. The Church is not one person, it does not go home to bed with the priest, and it does not have a gender. If the priest marries the Church, how then is the marriage consummated? With so many priests, is the Church a polygamist? Again, these ‘marriage rites’ are a ritual that was created by the Church itself and not Jesus.</p>
<p>3. This assumes that the Bible is the literal, inerrant word of God. It is true that in several chapters of the Old Testament, men are described to be the head of the household and the wife subservient. However, I do not accept this is the will of God for reasons explained in my letter titled &#8220;Fundamentalism.&#8221; However, temporarily ignoring this argument, the Church as the priest’s family is also an idea of human origin. Actually, Jesus seemed to explicitly say to call no man on Earth “Father” (Matthew 23:9), which runs against not only this idea, but the Church’s general practice of calling priests “father.”</p>
<p>I never claimed that the church was <em>trying</em> to oppress women, even if that is, in my opinion, the end result of its doctrinal position. It is true that the Catholic Church venerates the Virgin Mary (perhaps beyond all protestant denominations), but this does not excuse its position on the ordination of female priests. You again cite numerous physical differences between men and women, but again there is absolutely no reason to assume that these differences extend beyond the physical. Further, some of the differences, such as men being more “visual” and women more “emotional,” are most emphatically <em>not</em> scientific fact. Your claim about the difference between male and female approaches to religion seem similarly misinformed. I challenge you to produce evidence to support both of these claims.</p>
<p>The Church as a whole may not look down on women, but in my view and the view of many Catholic women, its policy does. It simply does not make sense to just assume that since Jesus did not select a woman as one of his “official” disciples that women are somehow spiritually incapable of being priests. All of the other reasons are simply further justifications. I don’t pretend to know why Jesus chose who he chose, and I don’t think the Church should either. Keep in mind that most, if not all, Protestant denominations allow women to be priests. I’ve attended an Anglican service presided over by a woman and found it spiritually fulfilling.</p>
<p>I am very glad that you are a devout Catholic and that you do not feel inferior to men. You are not. You can pray and do the works of God like any man. However, I hope God gives you the courage to question the works of humans. The Catholic Church has made many mistakes in its existence, and I urge you to see this position as one of them. Despite my outrage at the position, I do count myself beside you as a fellow Catholic. I hope that you will reply to me again, so I may modify my letter if necessary.</p>
<p>Peace,<br />
Timothy</p>
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		<title>Comment on Women in the Catholic Church by Rachel</title>
		<link>http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/2008/08/06/women-in-the-catholic-church/#comment-153</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 15:56:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/?p=119#comment-153</guid>
		<description>There are a couple problems with your theory.

1. Though women were seen as inferior in some regards during Jesus&#039; time, there were already established female priests. Thus, saying that Jesus didn&#039;t pick them because they would be ignored is ridiculous. The Jews certainly would&#039;ve been accepting of a female priest, but he specifically did not choose any.

2. Even if the time that Jesus lived during did play a role in a woman&#039;s position. God is perfect and sent His Son during the *perfect* time. Thus, God already knew if He sent Jesus in a time like *now*, Jesus would be rejected and arrested for being called a sexist. So, God is perfect, Jesus is perfect and He was sent during the perfect time. 

3. Do you have proof of women being ordained priestesses and being *accepted* by the Catholic Church? That is the main key there. Yes, women have been ordained--illegitametly--throughout the ages. Just because there was a female ordained does not mean the Church accepted such an ordination. You&#039;ll find that you can&#039;t prove your point. 

Here are the main reasons that female priests are not allowed:

1. A priest in the Confessional and during the Consecration of the Mass is in the &quot;person of Christ&quot;. As Christ is male, therefore the priest is male. 

2. A priest, when he is ordained, literally makes marriage vows to the Church. He is marrying the Church, who is the Bride of Christ. As a marriage can only be between a man and a woman, the priest must be male as the Church is female. (Of course, you might balk at this since you are obviously for homosexuals in the priesthood, you are most likely for homosexual marriage). 

3. Men are the head of the household. It was set up this way by God and, again, always has been this way. Thus, the head of God&#039;s Church (His family) is also male--Christ. Christ places a head in each church, thus also male. They are to protect, lead and feed their family, as the men of each family is to do. 

The Church is not sexist nor is she trying to oppress women. It&#039;s almost ridiculous when you look and see that the Church venerates Mary and believes that she is the &quot;cause of our salvation&quot; as without her Jesus would not have been born. We honor women all over the world, we would not do so if we believed women were inferior to men. 

But men and women do have different jobs--equal in importance, but different. Men are the head, but women are the heart. Men are more visual, but women are more emotional (scientific fact). 

We are different and it&#039;s not just because of our gender. Men usually want to see the Biblical basis for whatever and are more into that and visual aspects of religion whereas women are usually more into the spiritual side of religion. 

We all have our jobs. Men are physically stronger than women. Is it because women lack muscles? No, they have them. Is it because women don&#039;t have a penis? No, because there have been men who have lost theirs, but they are stronger still. So why? 

You claim that men can&#039;t have children because they don&#039;t have a uterus, which is true, but there are other examples of what men have but women lack. They are stronger than us because they are men. Does it make them better? No. Does it make us inferior? No.

It&#039;s just the differences between men and women.

Your arguments are weak.

I am a Roman Catholic female. I do not feel inferior because I cannot become a priest. I do not feel inferior because I&#039;m not as strong as a man. I am a woman and I am a devout Catholic and I stand by the fact that only men can be ordained as priests because that is their place in God&#039;s plan. I have a different, just as important, place and I do not feel inferior in any way.

Amen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a couple problems with your theory.</p>
<p>1. Though women were seen as inferior in some regards during Jesus&#8217; time, there were already established female priests. Thus, saying that Jesus didn&#8217;t pick them because they would be ignored is ridiculous. The Jews certainly would&#8217;ve been accepting of a female priest, but he specifically did not choose any.</p>
<p>2. Even if the time that Jesus lived during did play a role in a woman&#8217;s position. God is perfect and sent His Son during the *perfect* time. Thus, God already knew if He sent Jesus in a time like *now*, Jesus would be rejected and arrested for being called a sexist. So, God is perfect, Jesus is perfect and He was sent during the perfect time. </p>
<p>3. Do you have proof of women being ordained priestesses and being *accepted* by the Catholic Church? That is the main key there. Yes, women have been ordained&#8211;illegitametly&#8211;throughout the ages. Just because there was a female ordained does not mean the Church accepted such an ordination. You&#8217;ll find that you can&#8217;t prove your point. </p>
<p>Here are the main reasons that female priests are not allowed:</p>
<p>1. A priest in the Confessional and during the Consecration of the Mass is in the &#8220;person of Christ&#8221;. As Christ is male, therefore the priest is male. </p>
<p>2. A priest, when he is ordained, literally makes marriage vows to the Church. He is marrying the Church, who is the Bride of Christ. As a marriage can only be between a man and a woman, the priest must be male as the Church is female. (Of course, you might balk at this since you are obviously for homosexuals in the priesthood, you are most likely for homosexual marriage). </p>
<p>3. Men are the head of the household. It was set up this way by God and, again, always has been this way. Thus, the head of God&#8217;s Church (His family) is also male&#8211;Christ. Christ places a head in each church, thus also male. They are to protect, lead and feed their family, as the men of each family is to do. </p>
<p>The Church is not sexist nor is she trying to oppress women. It&#8217;s almost ridiculous when you look and see that the Church venerates Mary and believes that she is the &#8220;cause of our salvation&#8221; as without her Jesus would not have been born. We honor women all over the world, we would not do so if we believed women were inferior to men. </p>
<p>But men and women do have different jobs&#8211;equal in importance, but different. Men are the head, but women are the heart. Men are more visual, but women are more emotional (scientific fact). </p>
<p>We are different and it&#8217;s not just because of our gender. Men usually want to see the Biblical basis for whatever and are more into that and visual aspects of religion whereas women are usually more into the spiritual side of religion. </p>
<p>We all have our jobs. Men are physically stronger than women. Is it because women lack muscles? No, they have them. Is it because women don&#8217;t have a penis? No, because there have been men who have lost theirs, but they are stronger still. So why? </p>
<p>You claim that men can&#8217;t have children because they don&#8217;t have a uterus, which is true, but there are other examples of what men have but women lack. They are stronger than us because they are men. Does it make them better? No. Does it make us inferior? No.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s just the differences between men and women.</p>
<p>Your arguments are weak.</p>
<p>I am a Roman Catholic female. I do not feel inferior because I cannot become a priest. I do not feel inferior because I&#8217;m not as strong as a man. I am a woman and I am a devout Catholic and I stand by the fact that only men can be ordained as priests because that is their place in God&#8217;s plan. I have a different, just as important, place and I do not feel inferior in any way.</p>
<p>Amen.</p>
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		<title>Comment on True Evangelism by John 10:11-18 &#171; Letters From Timothy</title>
		<link>http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/true-evangelism/#comment-148</link>
		<dc:creator>John 10:11-18 &#171; Letters From Timothy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 22:01:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/?p=11#comment-148</guid>
		<description>[...] Did you catch that? Read it again. Jesus is telling us the key to being faithful followers, to guaranteeing ourselves a place in heaven. For all our similarities [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Did you catch that? Read it again. Jesus is telling us the key to being faithful followers, to guaranteeing ourselves a place in heaven. For all our similarities [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Women in the Catholic Church by God &#38; Politics, Part II &#171; Letters From Timothy</title>
		<link>http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/2008/08/06/women-in-the-catholic-church/#comment-146</link>
		<dc:creator>God &#38; Politics, Part II &#171; Letters From Timothy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 23:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/?p=119#comment-146</guid>
		<description>[...] Posts Women in the Catholic ChurchJohn 12:20-23John 6:37-40I Pray With My Eyes OpenHappy Easter! (Mark 16:1-7)Matthew 10:26-33       [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Posts Women in the Catholic ChurchJohn 12:20-23John 6:37-40I Pray With My Eyes OpenHappy Easter! (Mark 16:1-7)Matthew 10:26-33       [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on God &amp; Politics, Part I by God &#38; Politics, Part II &#171; Letters From Timothy</title>
		<link>http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/god-politics-part-i/#comment-145</link>
		<dc:creator>God &#38; Politics, Part II &#171; Letters From Timothy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 23:48:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/?p=184#comment-145</guid>
		<description>[...]  Welcome to the second part of my reflections on God and&#8230;politics. I spent most of the first part on background, so let&#8217;s get right to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  Welcome to the second part of my reflections on God and&#8230;politics. I spent most of the first part on background, so let&#8217;s get right to [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on John 6:51-58 by lettersfromtimothy</title>
		<link>http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/john-651-58/#comment-141</link>
		<dc:creator>lettersfromtimothy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:12:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/?p=18#comment-141</guid>
		<description>Which verses do you want me to cite? John 6:51-58?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which verses do you want me to cite? John 6:51-58?</p>
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		<title>Comment on John 6:51-58 by cornishevangelist</title>
		<link>http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/john-651-58/#comment-140</link>
		<dc:creator>cornishevangelist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 08:39:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/?p=18#comment-140</guid>
		<description>(Could you cite those verses?)?
Every day of my life</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Could you cite those verses?)?<br />
Every day of my life</p>
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		<title>Comment on Fundamentalism by Happy Easter! (Mark 16:1-7) &#171; Letters From Timothy</title>
		<link>http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/2008/01/09/fundamentalism/#comment-138</link>
		<dc:creator>Happy Easter! (Mark 16:1-7) &#171; Letters From Timothy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 03:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/2008/01/09/fundamentalism/#comment-138</guid>
		<description>[...] are, of course, several more) is one reason to keep in mind that even the Gospels are the work of man, though they are divinely inspired. The accounts in the Gospels, like the rest of the Bible, were [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] are, of course, several more) is one reason to keep in mind that even the Gospels are the work of man, though they are divinely inspired. The accounts in the Gospels, like the rest of the Bible, were [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Women in the Catholic Church by Happy Easter! (Mark 16:1-7) &#171; Letters From Timothy</title>
		<link>http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/2008/08/06/women-in-the-catholic-church/#comment-137</link>
		<dc:creator>Happy Easter! (Mark 16:1-7) &#171; Letters From Timothy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 03:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/?p=119#comment-137</guid>
		<description>[...] Posts Women in the Catholic ChurchRevelations, or Apocalypse When?John 6:51-58Welcome to the Triduum       Happy Easter! [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Posts Women in the Catholic ChurchRevelations, or Apocalypse When?John 6:51-58Welcome to the Triduum       Happy Easter! [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Women in the Catholic Church by lettersfromtimothy</title>
		<link>http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/2008/08/06/women-in-the-catholic-church/#comment-136</link>
		<dc:creator>lettersfromtimothy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 02:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lettersfromtimothy.wordpress.com/?p=119#comment-136</guid>
		<description>Thank you! I&#039;m glad you enjoyed it and that you agree. I can help you cite this website if you want.

Also, please share it with your friends!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you! I&#8217;m glad you enjoyed it and that you agree. I can help you cite this website if you want.</p>
<p>Also, please share it with your friends!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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